[DISC] Ao no Flag - Chapter 44
By - TotoroTheGreat
This deals with more serious topics than you'd imagine. Man, I love this manga for even featuring this conversation.
It's pretty funny that everybody is having these serious, well-written conversations that go on for pages, and the main character entire dialogue for this chapter consists of "uh?"
I feel Ichinose is kind of a stand in for the reader this chapter. He is sitting quietly and taking in all the information. It could also be that the author wants to show that all the information is important before making a decision on this topic. So Ichinose is quiet on purpose and will probably create his own decision after knowing both sides.
It does feel like he is in a haze though. Like he can't figure out what he should do.
Put yourself in his shoes. Those guys aren't his close friends, and he's there between them, ofc there isn't much he could share of his own opinions atm, they'd take the conversation rolling.
Not just featuring this conversation
featuring both sides of the conversation equally(ish)
Seriously this. I fully expected this to end with the girls shaming Kensuke and it being left at that but the author did good job conveying his different view point. Honestly both the girls and him have completely common view points in reality and it's nice to see them both explored.
What was really great was how Slick-back haired dude stole the show and called the girls out on what they were doing.
What struck me was how articulate everybody came odd - nobody got reduced to repeating platitudes
Seriously, this is some real life shit here
Also, I maintain [tomboy girl is the best](https://i.imgur.com/W1xgcRS.png)
EDIT: [Updated compilation of Saya](https://i.imgur.com/7z0Y8tp.jpg)
In this house we stan Saya and Shouko
Cliffhangers should be illigal. Depending on what she says, Masumi is going to seriously get hurt.
> Cliffhangers should be illigal
It's part of serialised comics, which for better and worse has proven to be quite successful. It's also why I'm going to wait until this series is complete before picking it back up.
That moment when Kuze started discussing the possibility of Masumi confessing to her and Masumi's shocked reaction because it was actually so on point. Ugh, my heart hurts.
Actual teen conversations that are mature? Sign me up. The first conversation in the chapter was really, really well written. Props to the mangaka. Such an emotional rollercoaster it was to read it.
I like how all of the characters seem to be gray, where nobody is completely in the right, and with their own insecurities. Love this manga!
So true. This feels like the mangaka listened to real teenagers talking about this stuff. This manga is so real in the way it deals with the characters idiosyncrasy and emotions. I hope we see growth to from the side characters in how they deal with this friction between each other and coming to terms with Touma being gay.
Absolutely one of the best chapters in a long time, and that's not meant as a slight to the other releases so far. Ao no Flag has always done a great job presenting itself as a strong mix between comedy, romance, and drama. The real kicker is that the drama is often serious and treats itself with dignity, and we end up getting really good characterizations and discussions between those involved. I can't come to agree with Kensuke's point of view, but it's very easy for me to sympathize with him.
What I loved about this chapter was more than just the topic of LGBT and sexuality; it's that they also tackled morality and vilification. It's very simple for someone to take the moral high ground and use that to disparage another viewpoint (regardless of whether it's proper or not), but like most situation, everything's not cut black or white. Don't get me wrong; everyone has rights and people shouldn't be discriminated against for things outside their control or the things that don't directly impact others. Yet, it's important to have meaningful discussions about them rather than immediately come to the conclusion where they agree to disagree.
Despite Ichinose and Kuze being in the middle of all this, most of the discussion comes from those around them instead which shows that they're still making their own choices and decisions among everything happening. Shouko, Saya, Kensuke, Shingo, Mami, and Itachi are all playing an important part on where the story goes despite some of them having more presence than others. Everyone will end up making up their own minds in one way or another in the end.
God, I fucking love this series.
> The real kicker is that the drama is often serious and treats itself with dignity, and we end up getting really good characterizations and discussions between those involved.
Which is why it surprises me how rape was approached here. It's flung in the air, barely acknowledge and thrown away... uncharacteristic especially given the rest of this chapter
I agree there. I hope that they return to Kensuke's experience at some point because the group did kind of gloss over it really fast by keeping the topic on Touma.
I seriously hated saya for laughing at kensuke, it pissed me off, despite that i gotta say it was kind of fitting how the molestation topic was dealt with as saddly in real life it is often seen as a laughable matter, "dude, last night at the bar a t*anny gropped X haha" not being masculine enough to defend oneself more than often is mocked.
most of the times female on male and male on male rape are used as comic relief in manga/anime kaito talking about it in a serious way is great, but saddly (and thankfully) kaito didn't mary sue'd her believes and instead went with the characters personality, saya's reaction was fitting as they see ken as a bad dumb brute macho with no feelings, brushing it off with a laugh and not considering ken's feeling fits the way she sees him.
The guy was using it as an excuse - they even stated that too about how it wasnt related
Granted thats a huge can of worms and it almost felt like he made it up due to how random it was since childhood molestation is a bit higher on the suffering scale then being gay, so you would expect that it would be explored on more
I can see how that experience would shape your life and lead to overcompensating on rigid ideas of masculinity
the "suffering scale"? what?
Just a term used to rate the level of suffering an event causes
It made perfect sense for the characters and the situation they were in
This is one of the most complex and well-written manga I've read in a really long time, holy shit. All the themes debated are so important and relevant, and ALL the characters are developed really well. Truly a masterpiece
So glad I’m reading this
Yeah and what they are saying are kinda true. So when Kensuke was talking I could totally understand him and was agreeing to what he said but when the girls chimed in I could also relate and was agreeing questioning why I Kensukes view wasnt perfect and so on. Damn like nobody is right but nobody is wrong at the same time. Quite a meaningful discussion and chapter.
This is proof that the medium can be art; and it's also a pleasant read!
Its funny because the art is taking a backseat to the text
I love that this manga treats LGBT+ issues much more respectfully than most other manga, but damn if Shingo’s arguments got a little thin at times. “What if someone loves to hurt others??? is love good then?????” is such a ridiculously lukewarm take on morality. He’s deliberately being pedantic and obstinate to avoid the main problem, which is that Kensuke irrationally hates Touma for being gay. I do agree that the girls were choosing their moral crusade over actually getting Kensuke to understand, but I don’t like how the chapter put everything on the same level, like a “oh wow looks like nobody’s right” scenario. I hope that gets addressed. The girls could’ve done a better job, but Kensuke’s still the one who punched his friend for being gay. Imagine hiding that big of a secret from everyone you know because you’re afraid of how they would view you they found out... and then when you’re involuntarily outed, one of your friends proves your worst fears right. That’s on Kensuke.
Hopefully, the author’s doesn’t leave it like this.
> I love that this manga treats LGBT+ issues much more respectfully than most other manga
you mean most works regardless of medium?
Perhaps; I’ve been just reading a lot more manga recently, because it’s faster than TV/books, and notice this problem regularly.
Agreed. I just couldn't get behind Shingo's words. It felt like someone just being wishy-washy and wanting to have it both ways.
Now, I'm no hardcore liberal, even if I lean left, but my main philosophy in life is this- people should be left alone to love/enjoy who and what they want and believe what they want as long as they aren't hurting anyone else (ie, purposefully seeking harm, not because someone is offended by them, which is on the other person) and are happy. Touma hurts no one by being gay. It all comes down to Kensuke's own hang ups. And he purposefully harmed someone else due to that. To me, that puts him in the wrong. Calling someone out for that isn't a bad thing like Shingo tries to make it out to be. It honestly just makes him seem like an asshole as well. Are we supposed to not attack the people who murdered and strung a teen up for being gay just because they have different beliefs? Because it seems like Shingo is arguing in favor of that. He's very Ayn Randian.
And I have to ask, is Taichi ever going to do anything or are we going to be subjected to another 10 chapters of him sitting around and just getting himself pulled along like an idiot? Futaba, the ultimate meek girl, seems to be pushing forward more than he is.
**MorAliTy iS SubJEctIvE, DesTroY ThE ChIld!** - Shingo, probably, in 20 years.
Nah, Shingo made perfect sense. He was the one not trying to make enemies. He's a for real nigga.
He basically told the girls to fuck off and let him have his own values. What they were doing was exactly what Ken was doing to Touma except emotionally instead of physically and arguably worse since they are grouping up to shut the discussion down entirely. They are hypocrites and Shingo jumped in to show this. Gloriously, I might add.
The whole 'It's ok to love but hate? He better shut up' is the definition of classic leftist hypocritical intolerance.
There is nothing wrong with Ken holding his view on men/women relationships or thinking Touma is gross. He can hold those views if he wants. Noone can force him otherwise. He might even be able to be friends with Touma in spite of it. That's for the two of them to work out.
The girls can shame him but trying to unilaterally shut him down and belittle his beliefs because his viewpoint differs from them just makes them worse. Who made them God? N oone and this is part of why Shingo stepped in. He gave them a reality check that they were doing exactly what they were complaining about. They didn't want to understand the other party, they just wanted to feel virtuous and set in their own beliefs.
So what is the problem here? It's that two sides with completely different belief's are butting heads. This topic isn't even really about homosexualty. Not at it's core. When faced with one another both the girls and Ken showed that they are impotent in how they handle the situation.
If the girls can't accept that the other party won't see eye to eye with them and continue on with their relationship despite that... What they can do is simply stop being friends with him. Just Like Touma and Ken can stop being friends if they can't come to terms with their differences. The situation is the same but the parties are different is all. That's why Shingo butting in was perfect. This is why Shingo beat them down.
this argument is so thin...equating differing viewpoints as equal viewpoints both worthy of discussion and respect no matter the situation is just erroneous. not every perspective in an argument has the same moral weight. if one perspective is arguing ethnic cleansing and another is arguing acceptance, moderating the conversation to say that it's just a "difference in viewpoint" is playing devil's advocate. the two perspectives aren't equal. there is no comparison. same as in this chapter, they weren't arguing some kind of moral trolley problem...ken straight up was homophobic and punched his friend because of it. the girls were arguing against his homophobic beliefs. shingo comparing the two and making nonanalagous comparisons was just argumentatively thin...very straw-man. what he did do well is call out the girls not empathizing, but his comparison mostly fell flat. he even admitted it himself to ken; he asked ken that ken even realizes he was in the wrong, right?
Comparing ethnic cleansing and actual violence to what is going on here is ridiculous and you should be ashamed. And your talking about strawmen lol. Later dude.
actual violence to "what is going on here" what are you saying dude that getting punched because you're gay isn't violence? and not addressing any points i made...just say you hate gays and go
This must've been a bitch to translate, salute to the trans team o7
I had to reread this and wow, Bald Dude's character got hella fleshed out in this chapter. I was really glad Spiky Haired Dude stepped in, it was turning into a Blame Game.
Yeah, if you read other comments, a lot of people are criticizing Shingo for defending Kensuke, because they are on the "wrong" side of the argument, but what the girls were doing was hardly a debate, they just wanted him to apologize while being verbally abusive with him and not taking him seriously.
This is what people like to do nowadays, dismissing and not acknowledging any people they disagree with instead of debating their arguments. What do you think happened to those people they de-platformed? They're still gonna go out and vote. Even worse, they're gonna group up and their beliefs grow even more fucked up.
But isn't that what he did? Shingo said that he is wrong in barging in the room, but that they should respect his personal values because maybe he had a reason to act the way he did (implying that he already knew about the molestation part before it was mentioned). At the end of the day, the problem is that even if Kensuke eventually comes around and apologizes to Touma, it will probably take time for him to do so, and Shingo knows that, so he doesn't want everyone to start piling on him and shutting him up before he can sort his own feelings, because that is the way the conversation was going to end up.
The way I see it, Shingo is defending Kensuke, not Kensuke's actions. At the end of it all you can't tell someone to swallow his feelings and keep going on, or change his point of view by insulting him. Let's just say I have faith on the author and next chapter we will see a second part of this conversation with only the guys after the girls left. Or maybe not.
Shingo essentially said that how the girls are attacking Ken's beliefs must be differentiated from them simply being mad at Kensuke for barging into the situation specifically.
Shingo is specifically defending Kensuke's right to have a different set of values and this conversation culminated in him laying down the fact that it's really the girls here who are being self-centered and inconsiderate as they simply wrote Kensuke off and expected him to accept their values as superior because of some misguided sense of them being 'better'.
That is what this is about. How to confront another person with different values regardless of topic. The girls are doing the same thing as Kensuke barging into the classroom like a bull albeit emotionally and more indirect than Kensuke. Arguably worse since, misguided as his actions were, they were upfront and brokered this discussion. The girls intent is to completely shut the discussion down. They are hypocrites and Shingo is pointing it out. The flow of events leading to them storming off defeated shows that.
The 'fight it out and resolve it head on to be friends afterwards' concept is old as dirt.
Shingo is not saying acting violently was ok but he is saying that the more direct way of men might be better depending on the situation. That just shutting up and expecting him to bottle his feelings up would not have been a viable answer for Kensuke and they shouldn't try to force it on him. They aren't trying to understand him either. He also brings to question whether someone who does that can really be considered a true friend in the first place.
He's taken a neutral stance with emphasis on 'Let people think and value what they want. Don't try and shut him down just because you disagree' which is why so many people applaud him.
I don't login to reddit much. So sorry for the bump. I'll not do this again.
As a preface: I personally think Kenji should never have gotten violent. That was wrong. We understand why and it might even be reasonable given his past but losing control of your actions is objectively wrong regardless.
But you ignored the main point of Shingo separating the issue of attacking differing values as a rule and the above (actual handling of said incident by Ken with Touma.) That covered basically everyone's grievances with the chapter.
From what I'm seeing, the problem is that some people seem to start from a point where they think Kensuke's values are inherently wrong and need repudiation like the girls. This was all covered in the chapter as being relative to time/place/situation/person so that starting point is already mistaken.
What wasn't covered in this chapter at all as it wasn't directly related to the discussion's main theme was an actual repudiation to Kensuke's handling/actions of/in the incident.
Would you have been happier had Shingo said in more concise words 'It's ok to think this way and feel he's gross and not be friends, but don't throw fists and incite actual violence idiot.'
Or would you still have an issue that he isn't siding with the girls opinion that having those values are in and of themselves wrong and need attacking for? If it's the latter than you missed the main point that it is the hypocritical sort of mindset that breeds disaster and strife.
You can flip the consequences of speech argument easily because it's relative and fairly weak in a logical or philosophical approach. You aren't trying to say the girls actions were proper consequences to Ken's, surely. Cause all that they did was showcase their immaturity and try and bully someone purely based on their mindset. I already covered that, as did the manga through Shingo's entire tirade and the result was not pretty for the girls. Why? Because the consequence was that someone who actually was willing to debate and understand rather than just reinforce their own beliefs confronted them. The result for them was a sound logical snuffing and hasty retreat. Shingo was in an entirely neutral position here so the view some people have that he was just sticking up for his friend does the character and author a huge disservice.
It's fine to say and think whatever so long as it's not inciting violence fr the most part. The problem here is not the debate that may happen as a result.It's the Tyranny of opinion that happens under the guise of interaction in the marketplace of thought. There was never any intention to understand, compromise and move along. The girls just wanted to virtue signal and beat down someone ideologically different which is why the issue shifted to the topic at hand rather than staying on the issue of Ken's actual actions in the moment.
Again, the end result is pretty simple. The options any of these characters have are either accept the differences and move on(As in remain friends) or just drift apart. It's whatever and neither answer is wrong as it's up to the parties involved. Trying to sink another parties feelings and expect them to adapt to your view unconditionally so as not to rock the boat is just not healthy or realistic as was conveyed in the chapter.
Anyway, good talking to you though. Keep carrying on man.
dude you didn't get his point at all
I clearly did and the latest chapter further proved my point.
bro..."tyranny of opinion", "marketplace of thought", "virtue signal", "it's fine to say and think whatever so long as it's not inciting violence the most part"...are you implying homophobia doesn't incite violence? i saw from an earlier post you already used the line "classic leftist hypocritical intolerance". sounds like you're taking a roundabout way to argue for discriminatory, harmful, or violent opinions under the guise of "freedom of speech" or "freedom of thought". many people are commenting from a platform of homophobia being objectively wrong - clearly you don't share that same belief. debate is important and so is the ability to understand or empathize with other belief systems or perspectives, but that importance doesn't apply to every perspective or belief...
Can't argue the point so just attack the other party lol? Typical.
I don't have any issue with gays personally not that it's any of your business. Nor am I arguing for violence or otherwise as you are so quick to assume. Like the dude in the manga said, I'm not the one trying to make enemies.
You didn't understand the manga chapter I guess since your argument here is exactly the same as the girls. IE: We won't need to debate/can't since it's objectively bad based on my subjectivity. My way or the highway.
This chapter was.... wow. It was a lot. But I hate how apparently Shingo thinks that telling someone not to be a violent homophobe is the same thing as being a violent homophobe. (Though to be fair Shingo didn’t seem surprised when Kensuke dropped that bombshell, perhaps he already knew and that’s why he was defending him so hard? I hope this gets cleared up quickly). Masumi’s friends are awesome though.
Honestly, it was a little tiring to get through this chapter because it's not the first time I've seen these gender discussions, on Reddit and the like. Of course, that means it was a great chapter, since it realistically portrayed the discussion and its arguments.
Gotta say that Shingo was the real asshole here, although maybe it's because all his expressions seemed especially made to look punchable. Too bad no one brought up the whole "paradox of tolerance" thing in response to his argument, since that's what usually comes up when I see it.
> Too bad no one brought up the whole "paradox of tolerance" thing in response to his argument, since that's what usually comes up when I see it.
I assume because at the moment it was too stupid of an argument to even bother addressing it.
What a chapter. I feel like i should re-read it.
This is heavy. Reading this chapter feels like I'm getting beaten over the head with the point. Although to be fair, it kinda had to be this blunt about it, with how sensitive and complicated the topic is, especially by today's culture. If it tried to do this kind of social commentary through vague metaphors and undertones, it might not get the message across clear enough.
What was the point you got from it? I didn't get a specific one, at least not from the first conversation.
they gave an excuse for kensuke's actions which i did like because we got into his mind a bit more and character development!! but ...that doesn't justify his actions? i wish they straight up said that in this chapter but i guess it'll be in the next
Look, I get it, the author is trying to bring up different points of view on a tough subject. But get real, it's not such a controversial subject that's riddled with subjective opinions. If you physically punch someone because of what gender they like, you're an asshole. Just because you have certain feelings towards something (in this case, dislike for gay people) doesn't mean you can act on those emotions. Just saying "Yeah but what about my feelings" doesn't cover it when it's about what someone else does in their spare time that's also not hurting anyone. If you could then people would go around murdering each other left and right, or stealing things and justifying it with "yeah but what about my feelings? In my point of view, I wanted this thing more than the owner".
Either stay and accept it or walk away. It's really not that hard.
That's why Shingo's point was so stupid. He was just being a contrarian to defend his friend's violent behavior.
But that's the thing, Kensuke isn't punching random gay people on the streets, he had a reaction with Touma BECAUSE he is his friend. He feels "betrayed" by him, he can no longer feel 100% safe with him because of his trauma. They need to figure it out, but it needs time. Stay and accept it or walk away, but let them think about it first.
> he had a reaction with Touma BECAUSE he is his friend. He feels "betrayed" by him
Doesn't justifying beating someone up because of their sexual orientation.
> he can no longer feel 100% safe with him because of his trauma.
Doesn't justify beating someone up because of their sexual orientation. A trauma doesn't mean you're allowed to take it out on other people. It's a personal issue that you need to work out, instead of using it as justification to punching them. If you could just blame a previous trauma for your actions then we'd have people murdering other races/sexes/sexual orientations while saying it's self-defence because they felt threatened. Therapy is a lot better than beating people up and shouldn't be so hard to figure out. I get it, they're teenagers and don't act rationally but that doesn't mean it magically becomes a morally ambiguous topic.
> They need to figure it out, but it needs time
Doesn't justifying beating someone up because of their sexual orientation. I get it, you need time to accept it, but that doesn't change that there's a wrong thing to do and a right thing to do in this situation. The right thing is taking time away from the person, reconsidering if you can accept it. The wrong thing is immediately beating them up because they weren't who you thought they were, if you can even count sexual orientation as their whole identity (you can't).
> but let them think about it first.
Sure. It's a manga and I can't impact the story. Doesn't change the fact that I think the author is taking something that isn't a hard moral philosophical debate and turning it into one.
You can't physically hurt someone because of their personal values and it shouldn't be such a hard thing to figure out.
By the way you wrote your comment I don't know if you want to have a casual conversation about this, you sound angry about the issue. Let's just say Kensuke punching Touma is bad, and I don't think anyone is defending him for it. Shingo only wants the girls to stop piling on him, and understand his friend feelings. The way I see it, Kensuke will probably come around to apologize to Touma, and maybe the author shows us how he changes his views about gay people this way. Let's remember that this is a manga and the mangaka is probably against violence the same way we are, so he probably put all these conversations for a reason. Let's wait to see how it plays out
Except Touma didn't betray him at all. Touma did absolutely nothing wrong. The entire betrayal thing is on Kensuke and his OWN hangups, which lead him to physically assault and harm another person. He's entirely in the wrong.
Even if he has a reason for being the way he is, it's all in his own mind.
Now, he's human and people aren't perfect (no matter how much Facebook people pretend to be) and we have the advantage of being outsiders in this, but it still doesn't make him right. Which is why I honestly take more offense to Shingo's logic in the end. He seems to be trying to justify both sides like they're equal, but they aren't. Touma is gay. He's not thinking "Oh, I should be gay so I can freak Kensuke out". He's not seeking to harm anyone. Kensuke's hate for gays is subjective thing based on his own hangups that caused him to lash out violently. His beliefs cause active harm to people who don't seek in any way to harm him. To me, to two are nowhere near equal.
Two words: So good.
Great chapter, although I really can't see Kensuke/Shingo's side here.
Say it with me now
Also, I'm sorry, Shingo is an idiot. You don't get to both sides an issue where one guy beat on another one for being gay. You can't justify that regardless if Kensuke was molested or not. Kensuke needs some serious therapy to work out what's going on inside of him that led him to react violently to Touma, who did nothing wrong.
There's nothing wrong with trying to understand someone and finding out why they feel a certain way, but beating someone up for admitting that they are gay isn't some subjective issue here. Touma has some real shitty friends outside of Ichinose and the girls.
I am a simple man who reads things way more complex than I can understand. However, I can certainly say the themes and arguments of this chapter were well done.
However, I can't help but lean toward the girl's side of the argument imo (even if they weren't well intentioned). Kensuke, in my eyes, is simply "wrong" (chapter makes it seem like there is no right or wrong) as I don't think Touma shares any fault with this. It's not even a matter of him hiding his secret. Kensuke just can't stand the fact that Touma is gay. Kensuke is the one who placed his expectations on Touma, pushed him away, and viewed him as gross. He just has to adjust and grow to accept Touma as his friend. As for spiky hair, his counter argument to the girls makes a lot of sense but I can't help but say there actually are sides to this, that Kensuke is the one who needs to accept this truth.
>"If Masumi-chan were to confess to me...I'd..."
BRUH. You can't leave me like this.
**DOUBLE EDIT:** on second reread (because this chapter was so good and too complex for my brain to understand), I feel like the molested thing was brushed aside and wasn't even needed. Anyone else think the same?
Maybe that’s almost the point? The girls pretty much literally just laugh it off whereas they more than likely would treat a female victim much more seriously. Essentially continuing to prove his point about men and women being treated differently as a matter of course.
Maybe that’s completely unintended, after all, this chapter wasn’t exactly shy about saying what it meant very forthrightly.
The way i see it, Kensuke can't stand bring seen as a sexual interest by a guy he sees a friend the way he sees girls as sexual interests. I think this is where him being molested come to play. Shingo's argument is actually simple, the girls are wrong to push Kensuke to swallow his feelings and get on with the majority. What Kensuke did is wrong, but he do still need to confront his feeling and resolve it with Touma instead of pushing himself to accept what Touma is.
I think the molestation thing was needed to make Kensuke's side of the argument at least a little more sympathetic. Like you said, the chapter's intention was to make it seem like there was no right/wrong, but without a sympathetic spin, it would probably have been really easy to just straight up dismiss Kensuke's take as wrong (especially given that readers of this manga are more likely to be on the girls' side from the start).
That said, it did kind of feel like it was there *only* for the purpose of making his argument sympathetic, and it did get brushed aside fairly quickly.
I dont agree with Kensuke's actions but id be lying if I said some of his views didnt resonate with me in regards to the opposite gender. While i do think ideally people should be treated the same regardless of gender, im very conflicted on (or don't know) how i should specifically treat the opposite sex given my own personal attraction and social norms. Respect is a given, but that can come in many forms.
This series is seriously bad for my heart
I can't say it often enough: this manga is absolute brilliant. The dialogues feel so real, the themes, the social conflicts, everything is in a sense relateable ... Relationships aren't easy and they properly flesh out every character in the current conflict, it just makes it so much more interesting to read.
I think shingo shows that even if you want to take a neutral stance, the biases can leak out
You missed shingo's point. It's that the girls are piling on him without trying to understand his point of view, even brushing off that he's been traumatized in the past. That just further widens the gap between kensuke and touma. They're basically just there for drama and not trying to get them to reconcile.
Yeah it's basically like adding fuel to the fire. They should have mend things first before they talk about what makes them different and then have a discussion where in they could help each other understand theirdifferences.
Seemed to me like Shingo has been trying to defend Kensuke at every turn, saying that no one is in the wrong and to try and mend things, while the girls are trying to make it a right vs wrong situation. He's not being hypocritical at all here, that's always been his main goal since the chapter started. And then we have this:
Shingo: I'm just expressing my thoughts. Giving my two cents, ya know?
Shouko: Whose side are you on?!
Shingo: Are you trying to make enemies?
Seems like that line was a direct response to Shouko trying to turn this into a "pick a side" situation and not just purely playing devils advocate.
I just want to clarify that Shingo makes a difference between "duking it out like men" and "girly tactics like annoying emotional attacks", he is saying that Kensuke tried to physically fight Touma the same way they are verbally assaulting Kensuke this chapter. The other part of the argument is that the girls are the hypocrites, they say to Kensuke he should go with the flow and accept Touma while at the same time not accepting Kensuke's feelings and fighting him for it. Shingo argues that true friends should come to an understanding, even if it starts with a fight.
I think that's going to be his story about if he ever gets one. He plays so much of the middle ground making him look insincere in the reader's eyes. One of his outbursts when touma pushed mami is a slight inclination that he could get an arc of his own.
Not to mention his argument devolved into insane "love isn't always good because some people love to hurt others". Maybe author tried to show childish understanding of morality, but all it did was show that Shingo was just trying to stick up for his friend - or as he said it, "try to make enemies".
you know the most unrealistic thing about this series is that teenagers have seriously thought upon gender and lgbt issues instead of what they read on the internet.
On another note im surprised by how mature answer the bald guy gave. When he said gay guys are gross i expected everyone to rip him a new one but the author does very painting everyone in a gray light instead of simply black and white.
In all seriousness. I feel that teenagers, whether they be in middle or highschool, are progressively more and more knowledgeable on these things. It's a combo of access to information and current hot topics in society.
All of them have flaws within their views which is realistic because they aren't fully aware of all perspectives.
The girls shame the guy for his experience
The bald guy pushes his world view on everyone and hurts others because of it
The guy with hair plays the devil's advocate which isn't inherently bad
I do like the more mature themes this manga is tackling though. It's getting better by the chapter. I do wish what happened to bald boi was more foreshadowed? Maybe I'll reread and see if it was.
I don't think Slick-dude was playing devil's advocate for the sake of it. The girls were straight up being dismissive hypocrites. It's a complicated issue that can't end with just 'but your wrong for thinking like this so be quiet and we're right yep yep'.
At best it's 'well here's your opinion, here's our opinion, we can't compromise or see eye to eye because what we intrinsically value is different and we can't make an objective declaration of what's right sooooooo.... u wanna fight? or you wanna accept the differences in thoughts, not try to shut each other down and ultimately move on to chill? Or would you rather storm off and cut ties?."
Girls seemed to have temporarily chosen option 3. Guys probably would have went for option 2 in the end.
Teenagers definitely talk about serious issues too. When I was a teenager we definitely joked around and talked about fun stuff, but there were also times were some serious issue would take our interest and we'd have long discussions about it and we'd debate with each other. We used to discuss the things we saw on the news during lunch breaks. Someone would bring something up and the conversation would develop from there.
Teenagers are basically mini-adults. They're in the process of maturing and they will talk about such things.
You'd be surprised about most of today's youth. This is normal.
Source: Am a Teenager.
Clearly the youtube videos ive been watching haven't been much help
Well teenagers aren't discussing this shit everyday, when you're done with all the dabbing, retarded ironic humor, and all the edgy jokes you get one of those, "let's talk about life" days and you get into some serious shit with your buddies. Talks of death, the future, love, jobs, religion, politics, etc... It's not often, but teenagers definitely are able to tackle real shit.
Source: I graduated high school last year and I'm close to not being a teenager anymore.
...Have you talked to a teenager in the past 10 years? They definitely talk about these topics, and in Japan too. A lot of their opinions will be formed not only by the internet, but by their parents/friends which is why they talk about these topics in the first place.
Slick-Back Hair dude is the best. I really thought the author would just write it off with the girls beating KENSUKE down but then he came to the rescue with logic and said everything that needed to be said. Bald dude handled his thoughts in a respectful manner too. The girls were sort of catty and it pissed me off how they acted. The way that scene went down felt pretty real despite the fact that most teenagers wouldn't be so eloquent.
Those last few panels, when i tell ya'll I stopped breathing !!!!
So many sensitive topics in this chapter. I love how they're treating it though.
This manga needs to be on the top of reddit. It's so well written and develops the characters so much better than almost any other slice of life manga.
This manga is so well written it hurts.
I did not like the way the girls brushed off Kensuke's confession (which I'm sure the author did by design). His homophobic attitude is wrong and misguided, but when he revealed the underlying reason behind it, they just waved it off. It takes a tremendous amount of courage for someone to admit that they've been sexually abused.
The layers to this work is incredible. I don't know what to expect next month but you could feel Itachi's anxiety leaping off of the page at the end. I wish this was available in print here in the US.
this was a really nice chapter in terms of fleshing out more background/less important characters and generally getting to see more of shouko and saya, and i really like how kaito showed that neither side is entirely perfect and both have moral and logical faults. every side definitely feels like they *think* they're in the right, which is hard to pull off
i am 205% absolutely completely and totally with shouko and saya here because holy crap dude kensuke is SUCH an ass?? like obviously i'm biased because im gay and he still sees gay men as predators but hes just, like. such an unpleasant person. obviously it's terrible what happened to him but that doesn't mean he's not in the wrong in This Situation Specifically. hes an asshole, i feel like most people can agree with that
side note shingo's argument made me think of the tweet that goes "theres actually zero difference between good & bad things. you imbecile. you fucking moron", im glad he got development aside from being Mami's Cool Man Friend but im :/ abt him as a person now (not as a character though)
I think that Shingo isn't trying to defend the fact that Kensuke tried to beat the shit out of Touma. I think that what Kensuke was trying to point out was that Touma has feelings that he can't help, Kensuke does too. The girls in the same breath applaud Touma's feelings and dismiss Kensuke's in spite of the fact that neither has the ability to just stop feeling what they're feeling. It's a disconnect between what the conversation is supposed to be about. The girls are trying to make Touma's feelings right and Kensuke's feelings wrong in spite of the fact that neither of them can control it; Shingo is trying to explain that Kensuke can't help what he feels and attacking him for not being able to just stop feeling is the same as attacking Touma for his sexuality.
Kuze's greatest quality is her empathy, so her answer would probably be, "I'd be confused but flattered," or something.
I think the rest of series will focus on Masumi and Touma confessing, one obviously already has, and then moving on. It feels like Taichi and Kuze's developments are nearly done.
Wow, this feels like the last few chapters we were in the eye of the storm and now we're facing the full brunt of it via text. Was NOT expecting that ending.
Mami is such a great character. Also, what the heck does Taichi have to say about all of this? His silence during that entire conversation was super noticable...and yet not cuz he also had the least presence in the room.
I feel like Shingo would be a good lawyer in the future...
Kuze: "What would it be like if Masumi confessed to me?"
This sucks for everyone. Kuze is obviously feeling self conscious cause now she has to compare herself to Touma and his long friendship and relationship with Taichi. But the idea that if she didnt "get in the way" that somehow they would've ended up together is silly. Taichi isnt gay.
I see a bad end here from an outside, not fully invested perspective.
Kuze feels guilty, the woman in the black hair almost looks like she’s looking at a golden goose egg she’s ready to hop on and I don’t know enough about Kuze till I fully binge to say heads or tails but it seems like if black haired girl took this opportunity Kuze might leave Taichi to “not get in the way of him and Touma” even though it is clear from the chapters I have read that Taichi is not gay and only views Touma as a best friend. Taichi being what I see as a push over just accepts it and ends this all alone without the friend he’s now distanced from or his crush that distanced herself to not be in the way.
I just see the perfect chance for author-san to throw in a bad end for Taichi. This is from the mind of someone who mostly reads dark fantasy and horror though.
Not only that Kuze is the reasons Touma and Taichi became friends again. At the start of the manga they had become acquaintances who barely talk to each other.
Good lord these are some heavy conversations, and I love this manga for daring to touch om these subjects
Holy shit, Shingo as the mediator was fantastic. What a roller coaster.
THIS is a monthly chapter! Not those fucking 15~ pages ones ¬¬
And man, holy shit those conversations... I didn't see that coming... Those kids are really fucking mature and author-kun is really fucking good!
Everyone talking about the content of the chapter and the dialogue, as they should because it was amazing, but I just love how seamlessly the author can transition from drawing everyone in proper proportions with very beautiful upclose shots on faces, and then one panel later everyone is a chibi and yet it still works.
Ugh, I maybe downvoted for this, but while I don't believe the girls have good intentions, I just disagree hard with these 2 guys view. It's not about being right or wrong, but it's about disagreeing with your friends and forcing his view on your BEST friend. He call him a bro, he doesn't want to cut off the friendship but Kensuke still judge his friend that way. Avoiding conflict is not the solution, but one can either deal with it, or leave the friend if you have differrence, not shitting on someone if you want him to be what you like, it's called manipulating. Everything is complex and should be judged separately but the way these 2 guys just make many things black and white is the just the worst.
Shingo's not defending Kensuke because of his beliefs, he's defending him because the girls are becoming condescending and inconsiderate. Without giving Kensuke a chance to know why he behaves that way up until they made him confess that he was molested multiple times. Shingo is becoming a middle ground in the arguments. We don't know if Shingo agrees or disagrees with Kensuke's beliefs but the girls could have said them better. What could have they did was supposed to be a discussion (as what Shingo really wants), but they are trying it to be an argument where there should bee a right and wrong.
I agree though that the girls are in the right, it's just that it was badly presented by them.
On the other hand, Shingo's arguments were at one point dog shit.
"Love is not always good, what if someone loves hurting people". It's a ridiculous argument, trying to stretch definition of words to suit his needs. Things that bring only pain are inherently bad.
That's why having a surgery is painful as hell, but is a good thing to someone who needs one as opposed to someone just grabbing a knife and stabbing someone for the hell of it. It's like when someone says "hurting people is bad" and he were to respond with "WHAT IF IT'S TO DEFEND YOURSELF OR YOUR FRIEND". It's feigned/willful ignorance to avoid addressing the issue.
Yeah that was a nitpicked argument of his but I think his intent is to make the girls realize that their approach was bad and wants the girls to leave, which made it surprisingly work.
Yeah, the left, but I would've as well in their position. He clearly only cared about being Devil's advocate to excuse his friend being violent and aggressive for wrong reasons.
Their approach was "flawed" but only because the person they're talking to isn't willing to debate or consider their points. And he's in the wrong, as all of his reasons for disliking Touma are emotional. Despite claiming that it's girls that are often unstable emotionally and weaker and shit.
I think that Kensuke is still willing to understand (he kept saying he can't understand, maybe he's willing to understand, we don't know yet but still possible especially at this panel [here](https://ibb.co/D9mY4LL) ) but the girls attacked him very much on a personal level.
"The reason why being gay being disgusting to you is because you're always thinking about doing that stuff with girls" "Youre a dumbass" are just samples of personal attacks that provokes him to defend himself more. They should made him think about whether his beliefs are right rather than saying that he is wrong. By then he can be convinced that he was wrong and did it on his own accord. Let's be real, we don't want to be told what to do.
On one hand, staying objectively on the middleground is good for discussion, on the other hand, Shingo is just the most shittiest middleground I've ever known. He doesn't seem to want to take part in the conversation at first, but just suddenly interrupt in the argument. He's making it like instead of hiding discomform, they should talk about it openly, but he, one of the people in their friend circle itself, just not doing anything by himself while criticizing people from outside, just pure hypocrite. Not taking side while clearly defending one side and criticizing others, hiding in the comform zone. And the way Shingo just twist the conversations, from the topic of whether Touma is gay and Kensuke actions are acceptable or not, to be about intentions, beliefs, how the girls approach is not pure and wrong, even criticizing their personalities (which they are there for the moral highgrounds). He reminds me of some people who are very good at debate, not because of knowledge but they're just very good at deviating from the topic. It just pisses me off
Shingo is playing the moderator role. He starts the conversation and then the girls interrupt him and start ganging up on Kensuke and dismissing his feelings, that is why he has to intervene and defend him, even if his arguments could be more elaborate. I think he is the only one who really cares for all parties involved, and Kensuke will probably come around to being friends with Touma eventually, because he is wrong at the end, but insulting him is not the way to make him undestand a new concept
If he was the moderator, he'd also acknowledge that his friend was in the wrong for being violent against someone he considers a friend but suddenly found out he's "gross".
Friends don't just nod and defend everything you say or do.
And he isn't? I mean, he is just trying to make the girls understand Kensuke's point of view, that doesn't mean he shares it. And he calls him out for barging into a private conversation
Agree. We can agree that all of them made wrong doings and that's what's great with this chapter. So many gray areas and emotions that made it real. Both the maturity and immaturity of their arguments make it really more realistic.
But I think he just wants to get the girls out because he knew that they were going to burst everything out om kensuke. I think he has an agenda with Taichi, maybe helping them sort out the source of the gossip or more related between toum and him.
Yeah. I just don't like the way the author potray Shingo in the positive light in this.
The problem is that one side tries to argue open-mindedness and understanding, while the other goes "GROSS, UGH, I DON'T GET IT" without trying to understand.
And the girls have a good point - he sees gay guys as gross, because he thinks they look at him like he looks at girls. Judges all of them as potential sex objects.
You call that manipulation, I call that dialogue and attempt at persuasion. Maybe a bit "manipulative" since it's his friends, but they're absolutely right that he had no business barging in, starting a fight and basically physically reacting to some being gay gay.
But on the same side, the one who argues open-mindedness and understanding are also being what they are hating. "You're a dumbass, youre gross, grow up, etc". The girls badly presented their ideas to the point that they are becoming the monsters that they hate. They are provoking Kensuke here. Atleast Kensuke is admittedly saying that he can't understand. Is he willing to change his perspective? Is he willing to learn from it and try to understand? Maybe? maybe so. The girls on the other hand appeared that they just want to win the argument and make Kensuke look bad forgetting what are they really trying to fight for, which is the open mindedness and understanding.
Yeah, it's called persuasion/convincing but imo it's basically the same with manipulation. The latter just appeared bad to the recepient/audient and the first one is positive looking. Shingo is like the embodiment of Dale Carnegie's How to win Friends and Influence People.
They call him a dumbass for hating someone who was born different.
That's not something smart people do. Or at least, smart people should *understand* that some people were born different and reacting to them with hatred and violence is not okay.
>They are provoking Kensuke here
YES! TO MAKE HIM THINK! To make him go "huh, why do I think he's gross?". Being molested somehow didn't change how he looked at his "bros", but suddenly imagining that he might look at him in a different way? Despite KNOWING he doesn't?
Kensuke already looks bad, but maybe he could realize it and at least learn to tolerate different people. Right now all he did was show that he's not willing to change, since he doesn't seem to have any remorse for punching his friend for no reason other than "gays are gross".
" They call him a dumbass for hating someone who was born different. "
That's the problem, they were being condescending. And I'll comment this back what you said, that's not something smart people do. Or at least, smart people should *understand* that some people were born different and reacting to them with hatred and violence is not okay.
It should go on both ways. Not one or the other. The girls should have said, what made you dislike gays? Why do you think that way? They attacked his values to the point that instead of him trying to understand, he got into his defensive mode.
As Carnegie said, When dealing with people, let us remember we are not dealing with creatures of logic. We are dealing with creatures of emotion, creatures bristling with prejudices and motivated by pride and vanity. They should have listened to him first and talk to him in a way that could make him try to understand and not resort to provoking and personal attacks, it will never work. “A man convinced against his will. Is of the same opinion still”
First, lets be clear, the shorter haired girl was the one being condescending, it wasn't "the girls."
Second, comparing someone beating up their best friend because he's gay to using some overly harsh words while reprimanding him for it is the height of false equivalency. Yes, it's true that condescension usually isn't persuasive, but there is nothing similar in the scope of their offenses.
Both are condescending, have we read the same chapter?
It's a consensus that what Kensuke did was wrong and his ideals are questionable and needs some learning. But can you convince someone while also using personal attacks against the person? Is being right to the point that making the other party feel low more morally right? It's not a matter of which was worse because at the end of the day, both were wrong and needs to realize what they need to change and understand.
>But on the same side, the one who argues open-mindedness and understanding are also being what they are hating. "You're a dumbass, youre gross, grow up, etc". The girls badly presented their ideas to the point that they are becoming the monsters that they hate.
This is what you said. All but like one comment of that nature were made by Saya, the shorter-haired girl. Obviously she's wrong for it, and the worst part was just blowing off/laughing about Kensuke's comment about being molested. But "becoming the monsters that they hate" implies that reprimanding someone for a heinous action in a non-constructive way is similar in wrongness to the offense itself, and that's nonsense. And just now you said:
>It's not a matter of which was worse because at the end of the day, both were wrong and needs to realize what they need to change and understand.
Well, it is a matter of which was worse because you arguing like they are. Nobody disagrees that the girls chose an ineffective approach to the argument. What people take issue with is Shingo, and now you, trying to paint them as though they're similar offenses. "Yeah, well, did you ever stop to think that Touma did something so unforgivable that Kensuke had to take action? You know, simply existing and being gay? You're judging him for beating the shit out of his friend, but since that's a judgment and he was judging Touma they're basically the same thing so if he's wrong you're wrong." That's not how it works. If somebody jaywalks and another person murders them for it, you can't just say "well, they were both wrong."
The girls' greatest offense is being bad at arguing. Kensuke's biggest offense is starting a fist fight with his best friend because he found out he's gay, plus outing him publicly. Without the latter, the former would have never even had to happen.
"The reason why being gay being disgusting to you is because you're always thinking about doing that stuff with girls"
The longer haired girl said this at the start and you think this isn't being inconsiderate ? They are becoming what they hate because they themselves become those judgemental people without giving him the benefit of the doubt that he's "gross, stupid, dumbass". Would their holier-than-thou attitude solve the problem? When I say about when they are becoming what they hate, they become those close-minded, inconsiderate people like what they are trying to prove against.
Your analogy is weak. Both are wrong but what are the similarities of jaywalking and murder? Just because they are a crime? In the chapter, the girls are attacking him already on a personal level. Instead of mending things over, they provoke the fire and made the man become in his defensive mode. But admittedly he says that he can't understand, so it could that he could understand and learn to understand. But one of the girls was condesending and says that he won't understand.
The girls' biggest offense is their holier-than-thou attitude and not them being bad at arguments. Shouko even assumed that it was Kensuke that started the rumors even though he declined it.
I don't know why are we arguing about this but everyone in that discussion was at some point, wrong. Yes, Shingo, Kensuke and the two girls were wrong. We can't say that we should just focus on Kensuke just because he made the worst wrong out of all of them.
"We can't say that we should just focus on Kensuke just because he made the worst wrong out of all of them.”
I mean, we sort of can. I agree that the girls were being condescending, and were (inadvertently) picking their sense of righteousness over empathy and understanding. But I think this argument gets easier when you consider Touma’s situation, which isn’t largely mentioned in this chapter. Growing up gay, especially in a conservative society, is incredibly difficult. He lived in fear and shame all his life because he was afraid of what his friends would think of him. And Kensuke literally punched him and thinks he’s disgusting– proving his worst fears right. That’s horrible, and that’s completely on Kensuke. Kensuke has his own traumas, but reasons aren’t justifications.
That’s why I think it’s fair to focus on Kensuke more than the girls. They’re making it worse, but morally speaking, Kensuke’s worse off here. The chapter had a weird tone in that it made everything out to be equal offenses, though I hope I just misread that, or it gets remedied. I don’t like this argument (and you see it today) whereas one person does the objectively bad thing, the other person looks down on them for it, and then somehow both sides are equally in the wrong. Yeah, the latter person isn’t being the empathetic and understanding person they could be, and should be, to solve the issue, but you have to understand that there’s a justified frustration in having to deal with homophobes. It sucks that we have to constantly defend some people’s right to exist as they do.
deep stuff there, hit a lot of points spot on too
Damn, that was pretty heavy.
Fuck, this is so well written (and translated).
Never have I seen something cover the concept of love so well in so many angles. From friendship, romance, hate, sacrifice, selfishness... Just wow.
I really love this chapter and this series...
but can we not shy away of it toally dropping the ball on the rapping discussions? It goes away immediately and the characters barely acknowledge how serious this is. Kaito hasn't shied away from discussing serious matters with due respect, except this one which he throws and discards.
As usual, Ao no Flag holds number one for the realist manga there is. This entire chapter was a roller coaster of emotions, and fit's so goddamn well with how the different opinions on homosexuality are in the real world. Really hits a different kind of realism.
>!Also, "are you trying to make enemies?" sent a shiver down my spine, like shiet. !<
see, I think this was a big ol mess. tons of various "teen issues" tropes, and that a character who doesn't like gay people was molested is super cliche and pretty dumb tbh.
also, no, you don't gotta hear both sides when it comes to bigotry. the girls weren't doing the "same thing," because they weren't physically attacking someone for his sexuality.
this felt like a very special episode of degrassi
The laid back dude almost had a point until he went "what if someone loves hurting people".
I think the reason why that argument seemed shaky is probably because a different definition of "love" is being used here. The type of love in this type of discussion should be the kind "relationship love", where affection, sacrifice, and tolerance is involved. "Love" in which there are waves of many emotions based on one's willingness to go through physical and mental stress because of their affection and relation to someone. "Love" in this sense, is not an emotion, but an experience. To deny one's experience, in my opinion, is wrong.
Shingo, in his "what if someone loves hurting people" argument, is also bringing in the other definition of "love": love in which the sense of satisfaction or the feeling of pleasure that comes for whatever that one person "loves". A strong positive emotion that can be felt as a stimulus in an instant.
In that regard, I don't think Shingo was stretching the definition by any means. Shingo approached and discussed "love" as an emotional feeling.
This is so so so so so good. I'm so glad Kensuke is finally being fleshed out. Although his homophobic and sexism is super gross, i do get where he's coming from with the men and women sports team, and the male vs female body thing is a construct created by society which I don't blame him for thinking that way....
There's something unusual about the way Shingo is defending Kensuke so hard though, I hope there's a flashback on the two that explains the molestation and their motivations more in depth.
I love this series. Also, Mami just slaying Seo Kouji. Kimi no Iru Machi pain still lingers.
There's just so much in this chapter to unpack that I'm not even going to attempt to comment on it in detail.
Can't wait for the next chapter.
This manga is getting better as it's getting more serious.
Heavy chapter, but man that cliffhanger.
i always think that arguing about the concept of understanding people never going to end well when neither are backing down in the end you just trying to force your ideal into other , better just stay off the topic and go on with your life .
Aaaaah an ultimatum from Kuze next chapter aaaah
The exchanges this chapter got me wheezing.. Still a lot to process and Kensuke's bombshell past isn't helping!
Gotta go and process all this up for now
Holy shit, this manga is legitimately good af.
This was an amazing chapter, it elevated the manga to a whole new level.
ngl this chapter felt like 3 chapters long. the discussion has been a lot to take in but i'm impressed seeing the different viewpoints come together during the debate. and please don't let masumi get hurt next chapter when we're already dealing w so much pain now ;_;
Woke ass teens.
I am convinced that human life is filled with many pure, happy, serene examples of insincerity, truly splendid of their kind-of people deceiving one another without (strangely enough) any wounds being inflicted, of people who seem unaware even that they are deceiving one another.
Osamu Dazai, no longer human
Fuck, this has been my favourite chapter despite not moving the story as a whole, the character development was perfect, characters put on high regards being questioned while giving a voice to kensuke, the peak of this chapter was that line shingo said to droopy-eyes girl before they left.
Basically a "people need to antagonize someone to be seen as good people" if no-one is wrong then no-one can be right, right? And it all lies in the most basic of human faults (irony checked); putting value on things, but anyway, it is what keeps us living in a relative peace.
Victims. Victims of a transitional period of morality. That is what we both certainly are.
Osamu Dazai, the setting sun
The whole selfishness, the selective blindness being discussed so perfectly, god is dead, kaito, god is indeed dead.
Thank you mami for pointing out how unfair this whole thing is for futaba, she got involved and hurt by something that shouldn't have, futaba is a character that i've seen people dismiss, i've seen people call her bland, just a love interest, the weak shounen hime character that is shy and quiet, and isn't it ironic how people who see her as a disposable character while putting the others on a pedestal behave the exact same way "bullies" do in the manga, and i'm not talking about the girls from chapter 42, futaba was treated as a doorstep being called a shy quiet pushover who couldn't say no, that's why futaba is probably the one character i want really to achieve happiness more than any other, and is not out of pity, but because she deserves it.
And to finish as i started it, just a final quote by ozamu as when i read this i thought more of dazai than Nietzsche.
Is it painful to be the person who waits? Or is it more painful to be the person who makes others wait? Either way, there's no need to wait anymore. That's what is most painful." - Osamu Dazai
EDIT: reading the comments is hilariously ironic, people using their morals as a moral compass, saying shingo is wrong when his point is "who decides what's right or wrong" only when it fits someone's side is good but if it goes against their believes then it's bad, nitpicking and excusing because it is benefitial to themselves... The levels of meta the chapter achieved is incredible
Osamu Dazai, run melos and other stories